ADAM: WELCOME BACK TO "CLOSE UP." LAST WEEK THE STATE SENATE VOTED TO REPEAL THE DEATH PENALTY IN NEW HAMPSHIRE ON A VOTE OF 17-6. THAT FOLLOWS A HOUSE VOTE OF 279-88. AND EVEN WITH THE LOOMING THREAT OF A VETO FROM GOVERNOR CHRIS SUNUNU, THOSE ARE VETO-PROOF MAJORITIES. SO UNLESS THERE ARE DRAMATIC CHANGES, REPEAL APPEARS TO BE AS CLOSE TO REALITY AS IT HAS EVER BEEN. HERE TO DISCUSS THIS MORNING, FORMER CONGRESSMAN AND NEW HAMPSHIRE SUPREME COURT JUSTICE CHUCK DOUGLAS AND FORMER PROSECUTOR, PUBLIC DEFENDER, AND HEAD OF THE NEW HAMPSHIRE COALITION TO ABOLISH THE DEATH PENALTY, BARBARA KESHEN. BARBARA, LET’S START WITH YOU DECADES OF LEGAL EXPERIENCE. WE APPRECIATE YOU TAKING YOUR TIME TO TALK WITH US. BARBARA, YOU HAVE BEEN WORKING ON THIS ISSUE FOR LONG. YOU HAVE BEEN THIS CLOSE BEFORE AND IT HASN’T GOTTEN ACROSS THE GOAL LINE. DO YOU THINK THIS IS THE YEAR? BARBARA: I DO, BARRING EVERY CATASTROPHE, WE HAVE VETOPROOF MAJORITIES IN THE HOUSE AND SENATE AND THE SHOULD BE THERE YEAR THAT NEW HAMPSHIRE REPEALS THE DEATH PENALTY AND THE 21ST STATE IN OUR NATION NOT TO HAVE IT. ADAM: MR. DOUGLAS, YOU WROTE THE STATUTE ON NEW HAMPSHIRE’S DEATH PENALTY. WHEN WE HEAR ABOUT THIS DEBATE, A LOT OF THE CASE LAW THAT GETS INVOKED IS FROM TEXAS OR ELSEWHERE. CHUCK: ALL I CAN SAY IS THAT IN NEW HAMPSHIRE, IT IS VERY RARE THAT YOU GET A CAPITAL MURDER CASE AND IN THE CASE OF MICHAEL ADDISON, YOU HAVE A GUY THAT HIS LAWYER ADMITTED DID IT. SO WE DON’T HAVE THE ARGUMENT, WELL, ADDISON, M BE WRONGLY CONVICTED. HIS LAWYER DID SAY, MY CLIENT DID SHOOT OFFICER BREAKS, WE ARE HERE ON THE TRIAL FOR MOTIVE AND MENTAL STATE AND ETC.. IF WE WERE IN TEXAS, BARBARA WOULD HAVE A MUCH BETTER ARGUMENT. ADAM WHICH IS YOUR PERSPECTIVE? THIS WAS DONE TO THE ONE CAPITAL MURDER CASE WE HAVE IN NEW HAMPSHIRE. WAS THE CASE AGAINST MICHAEL ADDISON A MISCARRIAGE OF JUSTICE? BARBARA: TO ANSWER THAT QUESTION DIRECTLY, THE JURY FOUND MICHAEL ADDISON DID NOT INTENTIONALLY KILL OFFICER BREAKS, THAT IS WHAT -- OFFICER BIGGS. THE ONLY INTENTIONAL KILLING IN THAT CASE WOULD BE DONE BY THE STATE IF THAT DOES HAPPEN. BUT ON END OF A BROADER QUESTION AROUND THAT, I AGREE THAT WE HAVE SURE IS A SMALL STATE, WE HAVE A NARRO LAW, I APPRECIATE THE PEOPLE WHO WORK IN THE SYSTEM OF NEW HAMPSHIRE, BUT WE LIVE IN A COUNTRY, AND OUR COUNTRY HAS A FLAWED SYSTEM, IT IS A SYSTEM THAT IS UNDENIABLY RACIST, A SYSTEM THAT HAS BEEN FLAWED, THAT HAS PUT INNOCENT MEN AND WOMEN IN PRISON ON DEATH ROW, AND COMIN CLOSE TO DEATH, AND IT IS LIKELY A SYSTEM THAT HAS PUT INNOCENT PEOPLE TO DEATH. I HAVE COME TO THINK THAT AS LONG AS NEW HAMPSHI HAS THE DEATH PENALTY, WE ARE COMPLICIT IN PERPETUATING THAT SYSTEM FOR OUR COUNTRY, AND THAT IS WRONG, AND NEW HAMPSHIRE CAN TAKE A STAND AGAINST ALL THE EVILS OF OCCUR IN OTHER STATES THAT DON’T OCCUR HERE. ADAM: DO YOU BELIEVE THAT MICHAEL ADDISON FACED A RACIST JURY? MS KESHEN: I WILL NOT GO SO FAR AS TO SAY THAT, BUT I BELIEVE THE STUDIES THAT SAY THAT WE ALL HAVE IMPLICIT RACIAL BIAS AND THAT RACIAL BIAS PLAYS A PART IN THE FACT THAT PROPORTIONATELY, SO MANY MORE ROUND SKINNED PEOPLE -- BROWN SKINNED PEOPLE ARE ON THE THROW IN THIS COUNTRY THAN ARE IN THE GENERAL POPULATION. ADAM: MR. DOUGLAS, WHAT IS YOUR PERSPECTIVE ON THIS? THERE HAVE BEEN OTHER POLICE OFFICERS MURDERED IN NEW HAMPSHIRE AND THOSE CONVICTS DID NOT FACE THE DEATH PENALTY. WAS THIS A RACIAL ISSUE? MR. DOUGLAS: I DON’T THINK IT WAS. WHEN I WAS ON THE SUPERIOR COURT AS A TRIAL JUDGE I REMEMBER ESPECIALLY IN ROCKINGHAM COUNTY TALKING TO JURORS WHERE THERE WERE BLACK DEFENDANTS. THEY KIND OF WENT THE OTHER WAY. THEY SAID, WE ARE ALSO WHITE HERE, WE HAVE TO BE CAREFUL THAT WE ARE NOT MOTIVATED BY RACE. WE ARE IN A UNIQUE STATE THAT WAY, THE RACIAL MINORITIES ARE VERY SMALL. I DON’T SEE THAT, I DIDN’T SEE IT WHEN I WAS A JUDGE, IN FACT, A JUNKBALL WOULD GO THE -- A JUMP BALL WOULD GO TO THE BLACK DEFENDANT, THEY WOULD COME IN WITH A LESSER CHARGE THAN THE PROSECUTOR WANTED. I KNOW THAT THE JURY WAS QUESTIONED BY BOTH SIDES AT LANCE AND THERE WAS NO QUESTION TO BELIEVE THAT IT WAS A RACIALLY MOTIVATED CONVICTION. ADAM: WHAT HAPPENS TO MICHAEL ADDISON’S SENT US IF THIS REPEAL GOES THROUGH? MS. KESHEN: THEY WAY THE BILL IS WRITTEN THIS YEAR SAYS -- MS. KESHEN: THE WAY THE BILL IS WRITTEN THIS YEAR SAYS IT IS ONLY WHEN THE CAPITAL MURDER GO EFFECT. . MR. DOUGLAS: THERE WAS A CASE ABOUT FIVE YEARS AGO WHERE THE CONNECTICUT SUPREME COURT SAYS, ONCE YOU REPEAL THE DEATH PENALTY, WE CAN’T HAVE ANYONE PUT TO DEATH THEREAFTER, EVEN THOUGH IT IS SILENT ON THAT. THE CONCERN IS THAT THAT WILL MEAN THA ADDISON GETS THE BENEFIT OF A LAW. I THINK THE SPONSOR’S CLAIM THAT IS NOT THE CASE, BUT WHEN IT GETS TO THE COURTS, IT COULD BE A DIFFERENT MATTER. ADAM: DO YOU THINK THERE IS LEGISLATION READY TO GO THAT SAYS THAT ADDISON SHOULDN’T GET EXECUTED IF THIS GOES THROUGH? MS. KESHEN: I EXPECT THERE IS. ADAM: YOU HAVE TALKED ABOUT THIS, ON THE REPEAL SIDE, THEY VIEWED THIS AS THIS ABSURD HIERARCHY OF VICTIMS OR OF SUFFERING BECAUSE A VICTIM OF MURDER, OR IF YOUR FAMILY SHOULDN’T BE PLACED ON THE HIERARCHY HERE, BUT THIS IS UNIQUE IN NE HAMPSHIRE. WE DO HAVE ONE PERSON ON DEATH ROW AND ONE WIDOW OF A POLICE OFFICER. WHY SHOULDN’T THEY BE ON AN ELEVATED LEVEL? WHY SHOULDN’T HER SUFFERING EXIST ON AN ELEVATED TRAIN AS OPPOSED TO OTHER MURDER VICTIMS? MS. KESHEN: ADAM, OVER THE LAST 15 YEARS OR SO, I HAVE HAD THE UNIQUE PRIVILEGE, IF YOU CALL IT A PRIVILEGE, OF SPEAKING TO COUNTLESS FAMILY MEMBERS WHO HAVE LOST LOVED ONES TO MURDER. EVERYONE SUFFERS. IT IS PAINFUL FOR THEM TO SAY THAT SOMEHOW YOUR FAMILY SUFFERING IS NOT SUFFICIENT FOR THIS ELEVATE PUNISHMENT, YOUR LOVED ONE IS NOT WORTHY OF THIS ELEVAT PUNISHMENT. WE DON’T NEED ELEVATED PUNISHMENT IN THIS COUNTRY, AND WE DON’T NEED TO PUT PEOPLE INTO CATEGORIES AND SEPARATE THE WHEAT FROM THE CHAFF I THE DEATH PENALT DEBATE. IT IS INSULTING AND PAINFUL TO VICTIMS TO HEAR THE KIND OF LANGUAGE. MR. DOUGLA I DON’T AGREE. I THINK IT IS VERY CLEAR. WHEN WE WROTE THIS LAW IN 1974 THE AIM WAS TO PROTECT THE POLICE OFFICERS AND TO DETER ASSAULTS IN PRISON. THAT WAS THE MAIN FOCUS. OTHERS HAVE BEEN ADDED ONTO IT. JUDGES, PEOPLE WHO ARE IN GOVERNMENT, TRYING TO CARRY OUT THE LAWS OF SOCIETY, THEY ARE AT SPECIAL RISKS. OUR PRISON GUARDS ARE NOT ARMED. THEY DON’T HAVE MACE, THEY DO HAVE A BILLY CLUB, THEY GO IN WITH 60 CONVICTED FELONS WITH NOTHING MORE THAN WHAT I HAVE ON TODAY, CLOTHES AND THEIR HANDS. THEY NEED TO KNOW THAT IF A LIFER OR A DOUBLE LIFER DECIDES HE IS GOING TO KILL ONE OF THEM, THAT SOME TAKE PENALTY WILL BE THERE, OTHERWISE, THEY WILL NOT FEEL AS PROTECTED AS THEY SHOULD. THAT IS MY VIEW, AND I STILL THINK THE VICTIMS, THE FOLKS COVERED BY OUR DEATH PENALTY LAW IS NARROW ENOUGH THAT IT SHOULD BE REPEALED. ADAM DOES REPEAL PUT THIS PEOPLE AT RISK? MS. KESHEN I WAS REFLECTING AFTER THE VOTE LAST NIGHT ABOUT TH PEOPLE WE HAVE HEARD TESTIFY OVER THE YEARS, AND THE PEOPLE WE HAVE NOT HEARD FROM OVER THE YEARS. IN THE 15 YEARS I HAVE BEEN WORKING TO REPEAL THE DEATH PENALTY, I CANNOT THINK OF ONE SINGLE CORRECTIONAL OFFICER WHO EVER CAME IN AND TESTIFIED THAT HE THOUGHT THE DEATH PENALTY FOR LIFERS WOULD KEEP HIM SAFE. IT SIMPLY HAS NOT BEEN AN ISSUE FOR CORRECTIONAL OFFICERS. IN FACT, THE FORMER DEPUTY WARDEN OF THE NEW HAMPSHIRE STATE PRISO, AS SOON AS HE RETIRED, CAME AND JOINED OUR COALITION AND OUR COALITION BOARD, BILL MCGONAGLE, HE WAS A VALUED MEMBER OF THE BOARD FOR MANY YEARS. HIS POSITION WAS THAT THE DEATH PENALTY IS NOT NECESSARY FOR CORRECTION OFFICERS, THAT THE PRISONS ARE A GENERALLY SAFE PLACE, THAT LIFERS KN THAT THE PRISON IS THEIR HOME, UNTIL THEY DIE, AND SO THAT THEY ARE GENERALL MORE WELL BEHAVED EVEN IN THE GENERAL POPULATION. AND FOR THOSE THAT CAUSE A RISK THAT POSE A RISK, THERE IS A WAY TO SEGREGATE THEM AND KEEP THEM ISOLATED THAT DOES NOT INVOLVE THE THREAT OF THE DEATH PENALTY HANGING OVER THEM. ADAM: LAST WORD, MR. DOUGLAS, WILL THERE BE AN EFFORT TO TRY TO CONVINCE SOME OF THESE SENATORS TO CHANGE THEIR VOTES? MS. KESHEN: IT IS DIFFERENT WHEN YOU VOTE ON A BILL THAN WHEN THE GOVERNOR VETOE IT, AND I HOPE THAT SOME OF THOSE WHO DID VOTE TO REPEAL WILL NOW RECONSIDER AND GIVE SOME THOUGHT TO THE FACT THAT THE GOVERNOR IS ELECTED STATEWIDE, AND HE FEELS VERY STRONGLY ABOUT THIS. MR. DOUGLAS: AND I HOPE THAT THEY WILL SAVE THE DEATH PENALTY FOR THE NARROW CATEGORIES WE HAVE. AD